When nootropics seem to leave you--a little later--stupider than you started...

johnshirley2020

I'm sure this has been discussed here muchly, but I've just started at this board today. As an example, I'm using Alpha GPC and getting some cognition/memory help short term from this choline enhancer, but I find that there is a sort of curve or peak of usefulness (naturally enough) and then I at least can end up spacey, goofy even, and more out of it than before--all in the same day. This reminds me of back in the day (many years ago) when I would occasionally take amphetamines. Mental enhancement short term, then increased mental dullness later. The solution--take more? But if I do that I don't sleep well. On any of the more efficient neuronootropics--that's the case. Heightened cognition, then lessened--to lower than before taking--and sleep issues.

So do you guys not experience these issues?

I'm a bit reluctant to start stacking stuff much because I've had bad experiences with what you might call "prestacked" pill popping in this arena. Many multi-substance capsules for general enhancement, containing numerous or even several ingredients, make me confused or vaguely ill or badly irritable or all three. Manufacturers often just toss stuff into the pills and see if it "sticks" in the marketplace, and we're the guinea pigs. To me, that is a stacking experience. If I have to try endless variants of combinations for stacking--well, I'm reluctant to get into it much. It seems risky and overly complex and, also, expensive.

And yet I get some value from Alpha GPC and from Omega 3 fish oil derived supplements. I'd just like to find something that doesn't have such a steep decline after that peak...or something.

Grateful for any help.

Neuro

Hi johnshirley2020,

Welcome to the forum. 🙂

Hmm, what you're describing in regards to Alpha-GPC shouldn't really be happening. At least, I don't know of any mechanism that might cause the symptoms you're describing. Alpha-GPC just increases acetylcholine levels and doesn't act as a drug.

But since you've had similar symptoms with other nootropics then perhaps some neurotransmitters are being depleted or are depleted and those substances you take can only do so much with it. In other words, you may have a bottleneck.

In this case, it's probably a good idea to try out a high quality multivitamin. Something like LIfe Extension Two-per-day or Paradise Herbs ORAC Earth's Blend.

Also, have you tested your Vitamin D levels? Are you getting enough magnesium from your diet?

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Those all-in-one formulations are often poorly planned out. It really does seem like they just toss whatever ingredients they can think of and call it a day. Obviously they don't conduct any thorough testing and your experience with them is not surprising.

In fact, I've found that even combining just 2 separate nootropics can cause the same symptoms you've described. Namely confusion, irritability, brain fog, etc. For instance, Rhodiola is one such nootropic that doesn't combine well with other nootropics, at least in my case.

johnshirley2020

Hi johnshirley2020,

Welcome to the forum. 🙂

Hmm, what you're describing in regards to Alpha-GPC shouldn't really be happening. At least, I don't know of any mechanism that might cause the symptoms you're describing. Alpha-GPC just increases acetylcholine levels and doesn't act as a drug.

But since you've had similar symptoms with other nootropics then perhaps some neurotransmitters are being depleted or are depleted and those substances you take can only do so much with it. In other words, you may have a bottleneck.

In this case, it's probably a good idea to try out a high quality multivitamin. Something like LIfe Extension Two-per-day or Paradise Herbs ORAC Earth's Blend.

Also, have you tested your Vitamin D levels? Are you getting enough magnesium from your diet?

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Those all-in-one formulations are often poorly planned out. It really does seem like they just toss whatever ingredients they can think of and call it a day. Obviously they don't conduct any thorough testing and your experience with them is not surprising.

In fact, I've found that even combining just 2 separate nootropics can cause the same symptoms you've described. Namely confusion, irritability, brain fog, etc. For instance, Rhodiola is one such nootropic that doesn't combine well with other nootropics, at least in my case.

Thanks for the reply, Neuro, it's very helpful. . .I don't think my experience with Alpha GPC is druggy really--it's just that it's stimulating enough it keeps me awake at night, if I take enough to stay on an even keel cognitively. I'd be surprised, anyway, if no one else has this experience. It's sure reported with amphetamines which are kind of an evil (unless you're narcoleptic or something) nootropic. Adderall will do that unless the user takes more adderall (and there's tolerance developed with adderall.)

It may be that some vitamin supplementation will help. I will try Vitamin D and magnesium regularly for starters. Can I ask what combination or single nootropic hits your sweet spot?

Neuro

Glad you found it helpful. Let me know how the vitamin D and magnesium work out for you.

Personally I take nootropics to treat my depression and ADHD and not really for cognitive enhancement.

For this, I've found this combo to be helpful:

Selegiline - 1.25 mg sublingually
L-Phenylalanine - 500 mg
Agmatine - 500 mg

As for single nootropics, both Rhodiola and Cordyceps work quite well on their own. And both of them work better in the long-term. Unfortunately, Rhodiola develops a tolerance after about 4 weeks and Cordyceps is immunosuppressive.

Phenylpiracetam and coluracetam are also good on their own. The former is a nice stimulant and can improve focus, motivation, and energy. The latter also improves focus but is more calming in my case.

johnshirley2020

Glad you found it helpful. Let me know how the vitamin D and magnesium work out for you.

Personally I take nootropics to treat my depression and ADHD and not really for cognitive enhancement.

For this, I've found this combo to be helpful:

Selegiline - 1.25 mg sublingually

L-Phenylalanine - 500 mg

Agmatine - 500 mg

As for single nootropics, both Rhodiola and Cordyceps work quite well on their own. And both of them work better in the long-term. Unfortunately, Rhodiola develops a tolerance after about 4 weeks and Cordyceps is immunosuppressive.

Phenylpiracetam and coluracetam are also good on their own. The former is a nice stimulant and can improve focus, motivation, and energy. The latter also improves focus but is more calming in my case.

Thanks! I too have to work on depression. I was taking duloxetine and am now in my second month after having weaned off it (finally getting over the "brain zaps") ...so things that also assist with depression are valuable. Is inositol useful? I think piracetam has to be gotten via a prescription, no?

Neuro

Inositol has to be taken in high doses for depression and it doesn't really seem to be a significant antidepressant on its own. Methylfolate is probably a better option. It helps me with my depression but again it's not enough on its own. Really, it's an add-on.

For piracetam, no you don't need a prescription. In fact, there are several vendors that still sell it: https://www.neuronootropic.org/where-to-buy-piracetam/

It's just that the FDA got stricter on how piracetam could be sold. For instance, it can't be sold as a dietary supplement.

Also, phenylpiracetam and piracetam are 2 different nootropics. And I believe that phenylpiracetam requires a prescription only in russia.

johnshirley2020

Inositol has to be taken in high doses for depression and it doesn't really seem to be a significant antidepressant on its own. Methylfolate is probably a better option. It helps me with my depression but again it's not enough on its own. Really, it's an add-on.

For piracetam, no you don't need a prescription. In fact, there are several vendors that still sell it: https://www.neuronootropic.org/where-to-buy-piracetam/

It's just that the FDA got stricter on how piracetam could be sold. For instance, it can't be sold as a dietary supplement.

Also, phenylpiracetam and piracetam are 2 different nootropics. And I believe that phenylpiracetam requires a prescription only in russia.

Thanks!

You made me curious about Rhodiola and I looked it up, decided to try it, have for a few days and seem to be getting cognitive benefit already. You said there was something it didn't interact well with?

Neuro

No problem, glad you're finding Rhodiola to be helpful. What brand are you taking and what's the standardization (Rosavins, Salidrosides)?

Yeah, for me I find it doesn't interact well other nootropics. For instance, combining it with Ginseng makes me irritable, fatigued, and I just feel off when I take them. In general, any nootropic that affects dopamine and/or noradrenaline doesn't synergize well with rhodiola, at least in my case.

But there's one exception to this: Jiaogulan. Rhodiola seems to synergize well with this herb. Specifically, they both improve my mood, energy, and a bit of motivation.

Also, I've heard that Rhodiola combines well with Schisandra but I've never tried it myself.

johnshirley2020

No problem, glad you're finding Rhodiola to be helpful. What brand are you taking and what's the standardization (Rosavins, Salidrosides)?

Yeah, for me I find it doesn't interact well other nootropics. For instance, combining it with Ginseng makes me irritable, fatigued, and I just feel off when I take them. In general, any nootropic that affects dopamine and/or noradrenaline doesn't synergize well with rhodiola, at least in my case.

But there's one exception to this: Jiaogulan. Rhodiola seems to synergize well with this herb. Specifically, they both improve my mood, energy, and a bit of motivation.

Also, I've heard that Rhodiola combines well with Schisandra but I've never tried it myself.

The rhodiola I've got is NOW brand, 300 mg. I don't know from standardizations I'm afraid.

Did you see this study on the use of microdoses of LSD as a cognitive enhancer especially for people with early Alzheimer's? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-019-05417-7 As a guy of almost 67 with some cognitive issues (but no diagnosis) I'm interested.

Neuro

Ah, I actually don't recommend the NOW brand of Rhodiola. It's not bad, but it's just not that very good. It seems to be missing something, I can't tell what, but there's definitely something that's lacking.

I recommend you try nootropics depot rhodiola. They have the 3% rosavins version and the 3% salidroside version. The latter is more calming while the former is more stimulating.

Two other good brands are LIfe Extension and Solgar.

Rhodiola is one of those herbs that has different effects depending on the brand.

Regarding the microdose LSD, thanks for linking that study, never seen it before. But yeah microdosing LSD is quite popular for cognitive enhancement. In fact, people in the Silicon Valley regularly use it.

Really, anything that alters perception is bound to improve some aspects of cognition, especially creativity. This is because the mind's default mode network stops influencing consciousness as much as it usually does. Basically seeing things in a new way let's you realize things you previously couldn't.

Unfortunately, LSD still remains illegal so it's hard to experiment with. But, THC is now legal in many parts of the US and in Canada. Have you tried microdosing THC? It helps restore some aspects of cognition, at least in older mice: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.4311

Also, I have to ask, are you the John Shirley? As in the author and musician?

johnshirley2020

Ah, I actually don't recommend the NOW brand of Rhodiola. It's not bad, but it's just not that very good. It seems to be missing something, I can't tell what, but there's definitely something that's lacking.

I recommend you try nootropics depot rhodiola. They have the 3% rosavins version and the 3% salidroside version. The latter is more calming while the former is more stimulating.

Two other good brands are LIfe Extension and Solgar.

Rhodiola is one of those herbs that has different effects depending on the brand.

Regarding the microdose LSD, thanks for linking that study, never seen it before. But yeah microdosing LSD is quite popular for cognitive enhancement. In fact, people in the Silicon Valley regularly use it.

Really, anything that alters perception is bound to improve some aspects of cognition, especially creativity. This is because the mind's default mode network stops influencing consciousness as much as it usually does. Basically seeing things in a new way let's you realize things you previously couldn't.

Unfortunately, LSD still remains illegal so it's hard to experiment with. But, THC is now legal in many parts of the US and in Canada. Have you tried microdosing THC? It helps restore some aspects of cognition, at least in older mice: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.4311

Also, I have to ask, are you the John Shirley? As in the author and musician?

Yes

Neuro - yes I'm the John Shirley you mean. Do you recommend Maca with Rhodiola? I'll try another brand of Rhodiola.

Neuro

Most definitely, Maca seems to pair well with Rhodiola, at least in my case. Some of the benefits it gives me include increased mental energy, focus, and a subtle but significant elevation of mood. In particular, mood becomes more receptive to positive thoughts and reactions which usually creates a subtle background joy. As in the state of mind becomes more inclined to joy than any other emotion.

What kind of maca do you plan on taking? There are 3 different colors: yellow, red, and black. There's also mixed maca which blends together two or more of the colors.

Also, do you meditate? Meditation can have a profound impact on your mood and even cognition.

Anyway, I recognized your name from the BioShock novel. Though I haven't actually read it, but I'm a huge fan of the original BioShock game and Rapture in general. Actually BioShock is my favorite game of all time. While the gameplay was superb, I think it's the setting of Rapture that really captivated my attention.

In contrast, Columbia from BioShock Infinite wasn't nearly as interesting as Rapture. Would you kindly tell me what you thought of BioShock Infinite?

johnshirley2020

Most definitely, Maca seems to pair well with Rhodiola, at least in my case. Some of the benefits it gives me include increased mental energy, focus, and a subtle but significant elevation of mood. In particular, mood becomes more receptive to positive thoughts and reactions which usually creates a subtle background joy. As in the state of mind becomes more inclined to joy than any other emotion.

What kind of maca do you plan on taking? There are 3 different colors: yellow, red, and black. There's also mixed maca which blends together two or more of the colors.

Also, do you meditate? Meditation can have a profound impact on your mood and even cognition.

Anyway, I recognized your name from the BioShock novel. Though I haven't actually read it, but I'm a huge fan of the original BioShock game and Rapture in general. Actually BioShock is my favorite game of all time. While the gameplay was superb, I think it's the setting of Rapture that really captivated my attention.

In contrast, Columbia from BioShock Infinite wasn't nearly as interesting as Rapture. Would you kindly tell me what you thought of BioShock Infinite?

I agree with you about BioShock Infinite. Also the game play was very frustratingly designed at the end. I've written various work-for-hire novels, including videogame novels and a Batman novel and an Aliens novel but most of my work is my own entirely; cyberpunk novels, horror novels like Demons--those are pretty well known. I won an award for my story collection Black Butterflies. (Okay I obviously dislike being known for a work-for-hire novel like Bioshock: Rapture.) I also write scripts, like The Crow and some television, some animation... my new novel is Stormland, a cyberpunk/cli-fi hybrid, from Blackstone books later this year.

Thanks for advice re Maca. Will try some. Any brand in particular? Don't know what variety to take. Whatever is good for cognition. Yes I meditate, a form of meditation derived from the Gurdjieff work, that is basically deep mindfulness; related to Vipassana meditation, Krishnamurti, Zen.

Neuro

I heard The Maca Team is a good brand of Maca. As for the type, I think black maca is best for memory and energy. And red maca is best for mood.

Yeah, I didn't like the gameplay in Infinite all that much. Felt basic and rushed. Oh wow, you have a diverse skill set. How often do you get writer's block?

In your case, wouldn't concentration meditation be better suited for you? As a writer, I think getting into the flow state should be a goal and not an accident. Mindfulness alone can help in this regard but training attention may allow you to enter the flow state at will.

johnshirley2020

I heard The Maca Team is a good brand of Maca. As for the type, I think black maca is best for memory and energy. And red maca is best for mood.

Yeah, I didn't like the gameplay in Infinite all that much. Felt basic and rushed. Oh wow, you have a diverse skill set. How often do you get writer's block?

In your case, wouldn't concentration meditation be better suited for you? As a writer, I think getting into the flow state should be a goal and not an accident. Mindfulness alone can help in this regard but training attention may allow you to enter the flow state at will.

Will check out the Maca Team!

THe object with the kind of meditation I engage in is to literally raise consciousness. To become more conscious--actually there are other more esoteric goals involved, the creation of what is called a Being Body, or body of light. But short term, consciousness. As a writer, I get into the writing flow state as a matter of necessity, for 45 years now, in order to make a living. Basically I envision a scene, relating to the story I want to tell and then describe it as briskly and entertainingly as possible. Much revision is involved, too. I write nonfiction too, as per example this book which involves the esoteric stuff: https://www.amazon.com/Gurdjieff-Introduction-His-Life-Ideas/dp/1585422878/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1578988979&sr=8-2-fkmr0

Neuro

Let me know how the maca works for you. Also, keep me updated on your rhodiola experience and if you notice a difference between different brands.

Interesting, how long have you been doing this kind of meditation for? Have you noticed any permanent effects? How does one go about raising consciousness? Is there a direct method or is it more complex than that?

johnshirley2020

Let me know how the maca works for you. Also, keep me updated on your rhodiola experience and if you notice a difference between different brands.

Interesting, how long have you been doing this kind of meditation for? Have you noticed any permanent effects? How does one go about raising consciousness? Is there a direct method or is it more complex than that?

I've been doing this for twenty-five years. Yes there are permanent effects. I am less prone to falling into woolgathering daydreams (there is a use for some daydreaming, as creative folks know, but most of our daydreams are just mindless free association), I am able to get in touch quickly with the present-moment, I am able to open my attention more fully to my inner world and the outer world; when I do these things everything becomes more vivid, I simply perceive more and, what is very important indeed, I am then less prone to identification with negative states of mind, like pointless anger, or depression, or defensiveness, or stultifying vanity, or resentment or envy. I have more inner freedom than before; more awareness of my choices when I respond to people around me. When I'm in a more present more conscious state I respond rather than just react. I've got a long ways to go but there's been much improvement. But being an elderly guy of 67, who lived a rough lifestyle up to thirty years ago, there is some erosion of my cognition, hence my interest in nootropics. I use Gurdjieffian meditation and practices to raise consciousness, which is something taught mostly face to face,though you can find some of it in books, but parallel traditions are Vipassana and Zen and some forms of Tibetan Buddhism and the methods taught by Jon Kabat-Zinn. People speak glibly of mindfulness practices but what most people know of them is quite shallow. We need deep mindfulness, to get at real self transformation and higher consciousness. Of course it starts with the awareness of attention as a thing in itself. Where is my attention? How do I move it around? Then one learns to cultivate attention, to refine it, to fan it out to the whole person, to observe oneself --to see oneself as one really is. "Know thyself". Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now is a good starter point. He's just kind of ...a beginner. But it's an easy way to get the first stages. From there...I don't know how old you are but perhaps this short piece might help: http://www.john-shirley.com/blog/?p=3680

Neuro

Nice, I too have experience similar benefits to the ones you describe. Namely, I'm much less likely to identify with negative states of mind and it really does feel as though I have more inner freedom.

Nice blog post, yeah time does seem to slow down as attention becomes more stable. Though, sometimes it slows down considerably. It's almost as though the world is playing in slow motion when that happens. But, for this to happen you need to have more conscious power, which comes as a result of unification of mind.

Have you checked out the book The Mind Illuminated? It's a meditation guide but very technical. It explains the concept of moments of consciousness as being successive moments of attention on an object. One thing to note is the idea of subtle dullness, which causes us to have fewer moments of consciousness. Reducing subtle dullness leads to more moments of consciousness and thus a feeling of time slowing down.

johnshirley2020

Nice, I too have experience similar benefits to the ones you describe. Namely, I'm much less likely to identify with negative states of mind and it really does feel as though I have more inner freedom.

Nice blog post, yeah time does seem to slow down as attention becomes more stable. Though, sometimes it slows down considerably. It's almost as though the world is playing in slow motion when that happens. But, for this to happen you need to have more conscious power, which comes as a result of unification of mind.

Have you checked out the book The Mind Illuminated? It's a meditation guide but very technical. It explains the concept of moments of consciousness as being successive moments of attention on an object. One thing to note is the idea of subtle dullness, which causes us to have fewer moments of consciousness. Reducing subtle dullness leads to more moments of consciousness and thus a feeling of time slowing down.

I'll check out The Mind Illuminated. Certainly, subtle dullness. Lacuna of presence...The film strip has had frames cut from it...I recommend the book Time and the Soul by Jacob Needleman.

nootropicgurus

It is unfortunate that LSD and shrooms are illegal in many countries, as I believe they should be a part of the nootropic discussion. As far as popping premade pills, I usually tell people to always at least try the classic 2:1 theanine caffeine combo and then expand from there.