My stack

Galaxyshock

I currently take

Cordyceps and Maca (black) often mixed in coffee with coconut oil
Jiaogulan
Bacopa
Phenibut (will have to cut this out though)
Melatonin (occasionally)
Driven Sports Frenzy (preworkout)
Creatine

I might give CDP-choline a try again, I should have at least few grams left. It's recommended to take 250-500mg, but I've read someone experience optimal doses low as 100mg to avoid some side effects. Cholinergics can make me feel depressed, I guess I should start experimenting with low amounts?

I want to try Sunifram but can't for a while since I have to stick to a low budget, been ordering too much herbs and stuff hehe.

My goal is overall health, reduce anhedonia, improve gym performance, help with schoolwork, and some anxiolysis and moodlift is always nice.

Neuro

Good stack, mine looks similar:

Jiaogulan by Paradise herbs
Bacopa by Vitacost (Bacognize)
Rhodiola by Vitacost (3% Rosavins, 1% Salidroside)
Creatine by Optimum Nutrition
Trimethylglycine (Betaine) by Jarrow Formulas

If Cholinergics make you feel depressed then I wouldn't try CDP-Choline if I were you. Are you after receptor upregulation? If so why not try Uridine?

For school work the most noticable supplements for me were TMG and Cordyceps. When I taking them together concepts just made sense to me, when I read about them it clicked in my head and I felt like I really understood them. Since stopping cordyceps I no longer have that clicking feeling. I'm thinking of readding it to my stack.

Also, cordyceps is amazing for the gym. It increases my strength and energy and I can really feel like I'm pushing when struggling with heavy weights.

BTW, which brands are you using?

Coffee with coconut oil sounds delicious, I have to try that. But do you feel like the coconut oil has given you more energy?

Galaxyshock

I was curious to try CDP-choline simply because I have some left. It always felt different than other choline sources, the first time I tried it I experienced mental energy and improved thinking. But for now I'm probably not going to use it.

Yeah cordyceps is awesome! I take Doctor's Best ultra cordyceps 2-4 caps a day, in my opinion it's stronger than MRM CS-4 strain. Cordyceps also contains an adenosine derivate that modulates the stimulative effect of caffeine.

For Jiaogulan I use Paradise Herbs too. I tried the more expensive Dragon Herbs product, but it didn't feel any better.

I've read that coconut oil can produce ketones in body. I feel more steady natural energy through out the day. There is "bulletproof coffee" where you put butter and mct-oil in coffee, but I think coconut oil is enough. Add a few adaptogens like cordyceps, reishi and/or cistanche and it's far superior tonic hehe.

Neuro

I should try coconout oil in my coffee then, it sounds pretty good.

Doctor's Best cordyceps is what I take too, but I only need one capsule to feel it. It builds up over time and Cordyceps is also an MAO-B inhibitor so it should further increase the effects. Its adenosine-like structure is the reason why it can increase testosterone synthesis in the testes without affecting luteinizing hormone or follicle stimulating hormone.

Paradise herbs is pretty good and it's what I take, but I'm worried it might contain heavy metals or other toxic compounds. Paradise herbs has refused to give out COA, well at least according to some people on the Internet. I haven't asked them for it myself. Also, how come Jiaogulan is so expensive compared to Ginseng? Isn't Jiaogulan termed the poor-man's ginseng? Paradise herbs' Jiaogulan is 250 mg x 60 capsules which is 15 g. It costs $8.00 from iHerb so it's $0.53/g. NOW Food's panax ginseng is 500 mg x 250 capsules which is 125 g and it costs $20.38 per bottle so it ends up being $0.16/g. Ginseng is much cheaper per gram than Jiaogulan, so how come Jiaogulan is termed poor-man's ginseng? :huh:

Galaxyshock

Paradise Herbs Jiaogulan is 12:1 extract, so you should be getting equilavent of 3 grams whole herb with one capsule. So.. count again 😉 Better comparison would be for example Nature's Way standardized Korean Ginseng, 60 capsules for $11.33. Also, there's less competition in Jiaogulan market since Ginseng is far better known, so they could even keep higher prices.

Neuro

Ah, I guess you're right. Still, I wish paradise herbs would give us the COA. I just want the piece of mind that I'm not swallowing a pill full of heavy metals everyday.

Galaxyshock

Melatonin gives me annoying headache next day, this has happened several times. I took 3mg last night to fall back asleep. Maybe I should break the capsule and use less, I've read doses less than a milligram are still effective.

Galaxyshock

Aside some sleep problems, I haven't had any major withdrawal symptoms from Phenibut so far. I cut it out quite rapidly, and took my last dose (250mg) last night. Was up to 2 grams a day at highest. I attribute this lack of problems with wd to anxiolytic effects of Bacopa and that I've been exercising a lot lately. I'm also taking Gotu Kola now to ease things as it is also a GABA-B agonist. Wierd thing, I think the preworkout supplement DS Craze actually also calms me while providing energetic focused state. Maybe it's the taurine as its inhibitory, quite a nice product anyways.

I hope the sleep issue resolves soon. Drank two large beers last night and it helped to fall asleep, but I woke up in the middle of the night. Then had some very vivid dreams when I was able to fall asleep again.

Neuro

That's weird that Craze calms you down. Maybe the increased dopamine is hitting the autoreceptors? Or maybe the increased norepinephrine is?

For Melatonin I find 300 to 600 mcg to be very good at promoting sleep, but when I really want to sleep deep I take this brand called Schiff which has 3 mg of Melatonin and 25 mg of L-Theanine. I feel like the Theanine really helps out. I tried taking 100 mg of Theanine by itself once before bed and found myself too stimulated to sleep. I guess 25 mg releases more GABA than dopamine.

If you're still having sleep problems you could try diphenhydramine. Careful with it though, I took 50 mg once and I slept for 12 hours straight. After I woke up I was very drowsy and sleepy. Drank a cup of coffee and it didn't help at all. Had to take 5 mg of methylphenidate to ward off the drowsiness.

Galaxyshock

I meant DS Frenzy that I'm using, Craze was their previous product that got banned for stimulant analogs. I think the effect is mainly noradrenergic, good calm focus but kinda requires that I'm doing something.

In my last experiments with l-theanine I got no effects regardless of the dosage. It's been a year though. I like black tea sometimes, it should actually have more theanine than green tea.

My problem seems to be that I wake up in the middle of the night and feel restless inability to fall asleep again. Drank some wine last night to calm down. I could try diphenhydramine since it should be sold OTC.

Neuro

Yeah I used to have that problem of waking up often at night. But lately I haven't been experiencing it as much. I think it's because of the TMG and bacopa.

I also like black tea, but for whatever reason its effects have changed in the past 3 years. When I used to drink black tea 3 years ago I would get very sleepy and tired, but now it just improves my focus a little bit. It could be a decrease in GABA receptors or an increase in dopamine receptors. I think its the former since my anhedonia 3 years ago wasn't as bad as it is today.

As for my stack I dropped the Jiaogulan today. I'm sleeping for 12 hours again and my appetite has decreased. Here's what I'm taking:

1000 mg TMG
Bacopa
Creatine

I also dropped the Rhodiola. Not only did my nipples remain puffy, but I also started developing gyno. I have no idea why this happened. Rhodiola usually never gives me gyno, just puffy nipples. Maybe it's the bacopa? Or TMG?

Galaxyshock

It could be Bacopa, it may be slightly "de-masculinizing", I mean it doesn't decrease testosterone but may decrease fertility in men IIRC and is serotonergic. Perhaps it's not agreeing with your body. It's very unfortunate that you get these side effects.

For me it's working fine. Anxiolysis and anti-depressive effect are what I still note, nothing spectacular but very helpful. I feel more at ease in social situations and my body produces less "hyper-vigilance" that I'm prone to when I get stressed. Had a job interview and I felt rather laidback without any extra anxiolytics which is new to me. Still getting some GI distress from Bacopa though.

Neuro

I read the brand is very important when it comes to GI issues. Some brands are more prone to causing GI distress than others. I'm using the Bacognize extract by Vitacost and the diarrhea has stopped since the 3rd day. Swanson vitamins also has the Bacognize extract, have you tried it? It's supposedly free from heavy metals which is what's speculated to causing the GI issues.

I've readded Jiaogulan to my stack again. I've been sleeping for 12 hours again and my appetite is still low so I don't think it was Jiaogulan that was causing it.

As for my nipples they seem to be back to normal. No more gyno either. I should note that I was sick with either a flu or cold during the time I started developing puffy nipples and gyno, but the gyno kept increasing even after I wasn't sick anymore. Could having the flu or a cold affect my hormones? I've never heard of such a thing, but who knows. :huh:

Galaxyshock

Well the GI issues seem to have now subsided, it could've been something else causing it too. I've run out of several herbs but got new stuff so I've changed my stack a bit:

Bacopa - I find that it blunts stimulants, and I'm perhaps feeling a bit neutral and less excitable, but overall it's very beneficial so I'm going to stick with it. I began taking it twice a day to combat stress but gonna cut down back to once a day now.
Ginseng - using some six year old chinese red ginseng at the moment
Spirulina - something like half a teaspoon, gives more natural energy through out the day and sharpens my thinking a bit.
Licorice root (powdered) - This is nice herb, tastes good and makes me feel better. I've read some anecdotes it relieving anhedonia, I've sometimes experienced even mild euphoria from licorice. Have you tried it, Neuro? it should be rather cheap.
Neem - for skin health, using the himalaya brand extract. It gives a nice glow and better circulation.
Phenibut - when needed, I'll try to minimize the use, twice a week or so at max.
Turmeric - tablespoon a day, I also use it as a teeth whitener
Frenzy - preworkout, although I've now took it in the morning sometimes because it works so well to get me going hehe.

Neuro

Huh, I personally have not found bacopa to blunt stimulants, on the other hand I find caffeine to be very stimulating now. A cup of coffee gives me great energy and wakes me up. It's funny because in the past not even 3 cups of coffee would do anything for fatigue. The only thing they would stimulate was my bladder and colon. :dodgy:

Of course it could also be the 1000 mg TMG I'm taking.

Which bacopa brand do you use? I know I've asked this before but I keep forgetting, hehe, kinda ironic since bacopa is supposed to help memory.

Licorice is cheap and I've read a lot of reports on its beneficial effects on anhedonia, but it's estrogenic and I'm worried it might give me gyno. I'm sensitive to this for whatever reason. Maca and Rhodiola aren't known to cause gyno, but I've gotten it from them. Maybe I have high estradiol? It's probably not enough to cause gyno by itself but when a phytoestrogen comes into play gyno develops. Also, this herb supposedly takes weeks if not months to work. How long have you been taking it?

Hehe, turmeric for teeth whitening? I put turmeric on my chicken and every time I eat it my mouth becomes yellow-colored. Also you should probably take it with black pepper to enhance absorption. Here's one of my chicken recipes:

Black pepper
Cayenne powder
Turmeric
Onion powder
Olive oil (about a teaspoon or two in the bowl to help mix the spices)

Preheat the oven to 425 and put the chicken in for 35 minutes. Glaze the top of the chicken with olive oil before putting it in the oven if you want it extra juicy.

Anyway, here's what my stack looks like:

Bacopa - not sure exactly if it's helping or not, but it hasn't given me any side effects so I'm keeping it in my stack
TMG (1000 mg) - Gives me energy, improves my appetite. Helps recycle methionine into SAM-e
Jiaogulan - Improves focus and gives clean energy in a non-stimulating way. Also decreases inhibitions, i.e. I'm more likely to play a game on Jiaogulan. I'll just think 'meh, why not' whereas normally I'd think 'why bother'. Also decreases anhedonia to a small degree
Cordyceps (5 days on, 2 days off) - I take this during the week for gym energy and also for the focus it gives. It seems to enhance learning and memory. Learning new things makes sense, like new concepts seem to click in my head. It feels like I really understand the concept whereas normally I wouldn't feel confident that I just learned something new. Taking it everyday causes fatigue after the 1st week and mood blunting.
Vitamin D (5000 IU on weekdays) - Just to keep my levels in check
Multivitamin (Life extension two-per-day, I take one capsule every other day) - Taking one capsule everyday seems to decrease my appetite and also cause fatigue so I take one every other day. It's just to keep my levels in check but also it helps my skin health
Creatine - Decreases fatigue in the gym. Also supposedly enhances SAM-e production according to examine.com

Galaxyshock

I use Ojio bacopa extract (50% bacosides) usually 1/4 teaspoon a day.

There must be something in your endocrines that makes you prone to gyno and sensitive to phytohormones. I guess the risk is there with Licorice too. I've usually noticed its benefits rather quickly, within few days to a week. But I read people take it capsuled at low doses 500mg or something, I take it in powdered form several teaspoons a day. It's also a good sweetener for tea etc, Glycyrrhizin is 30-50 times sweeter than sugar.

Yes turmeric stains everything yellow, but somehow works as a teeth whitener and is overall good for dental health. Check this out: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/59043-turmeric-as-a-teeth-whitener-really/
Supposably chewing the root is most effective, but brushing with the powder works too. Kinda messy though.

Thanks for the recipe, I like the idea of using olive oil.

I take Vitamin D too, 2000 IU/day.
By the way, I remember reading about Jiaogulan increasing vitamin D levels in the body?

Neuro

Licorice a sweetener? Interesting, I may look into it then. I'm just really worried about the possibility of developing gyno.

Haha, wow. I never thought turmeric, of all things, would be used for teeth whitening. I'd rather chew the root than brush with the powder though.

Jiaogulan increases vitamin d? I looked it up and found this book:

Jiaogulan is thought to increase lipid metabolism, which includes the conversion of cholestrol to Vitamin D, bile acid and HDL.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=nqSRd5or9tkC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=jiaogulan+vitamin+d&source=bl&ots=CDB9G_dp5W&sig=UQwpZGWFjVsJM-IrLphN28E9scw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RxFEVI2YK9OeyASm4oLgCg&ved=0CGsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=jiaogulan%20vitamin%20d&f=false

Interesting, so it may increase Vitamin D when in the sun.

Galaxyshock

I added Rhodiola liquid extract to my stack, while I ran out of ginseng and Frenzy.

Turmeric with black pepper potentiates the antidepressant effects of bacopa I feel, and Rhodiola adds in there nicely. I'm starting to feel very bright and happy.

Antidepressant activity of curcumin: involvement of serotonin and dopamine system.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18766332

Neuro

I've been feeling more apathetic and fatigued recently. I dropped the Jiaogulan again and it seems to have gotten a bit better, but still not like how I was a few weeks ago. Could it be bacopa? Does the fatigue build up overtime?

On the other hand, bacopa is starting to work for me. Short-term memory is still the same I think, but long-term memories popup in my head from time-to-time.

Galaxyshock

It could be Bacopa, I started feeling rather fatigued too. I now take Ginseng again and it takes care of it, there's always been balancing effect between the two. Maybe it's that Bacopa decreases cAMP while Ginseng raises it, or something.

This time of the year I have tendency to fatigue regardless though.